tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6719252574677567989.post2826550332234087603..comments2024-03-18T07:11:29.068-04:00Comments on Frontloading HQ: More Thoughts on Penalties to Prevent FrontloadingJosh Putnamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06301836432446874997noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6719252574677567989.post-81799309616377829712008-08-31T05:16:00.000-04:002008-08-31T05:16:00.000-04:00Josh and Scott,I am intrigued by the concept and a...Josh and Scott,<BR/><BR/>I am intrigued by the concept and am trying to wrap my mind around it. I will get a copy of the book and read it. You are getting my initial reactions. <BR/><BR/>The ATM analogy does not ease my worries. I know people who would carefully guard their ATM card because money is very important to them but might be willing to sell their voting card for say $50. I also know two people in their 50s who do all of their elderly parent's banking for them. I don't think either one would even consider voting for their parents, but I am not so sure about others with lower moral scruples.<BR/><BR/>Like I said earlier, I am open to the idea and have embraced the electronic voting system we have in Georgia. With the current system so controversial on the left for lack of a paper trail and concern that the Republicans and Diebold are in bed together coupled with the voter ID laws the Republicans have been pushing around the country, I confess to being either a pessimist or realist on this issue.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03379192575044761972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6719252574677567989.post-53823336500407023742008-08-30T15:50:00.000-04:002008-08-30T15:50:00.000-04:00And the short version:ATM cards seem to be about a...And the short version:<BR/><BR/>ATM cards seem to be about as immune from fraud as current voting systems. Internet voting is not in principle more difficult.<BR/><BR/>Disenfranchisement is not a problem. Just make sure there is internet access at appropriate times in public places. In cities, almost all libraries already offer this; there might be some rural areas where mobile stations would have to be used. But still a lot cheaper than a traditional election.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14690577323454357276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6719252574677567989.post-8273868870709390332008-08-30T15:28:00.000-04:002008-08-30T15:28:00.000-04:00Rob,See my link in the previous comment. Those gu...Rob,<BR/>See my link in the previous comment. Those guys wrote the book on internet voting...literally.<BR/><BR/>In fact, you'll see that Michael Alvarez has a post up now that shows their book on the shelves in Boston.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6719252574677567989.post-29168126757084737842008-08-30T15:24:00.000-04:002008-08-30T15:24:00.000-04:00This is great point, Scott. I'm still surprised t...This is great point, Scott. I'm still surprised that internet voting has not been more prominent. I mean, Arizona's Democratic primary in 1996 was internet-based, and it really hasn't been done since. They are at APSA (American Political Science Association conference) now, but I'll have to put in a email to the guys at <A HREF="http://electionupdates.caltech.edu/" REL="nofollow">Election Updates</A>. Alvarez and Hall may have some ideas on that. And it is a nice overlap in our respective research agendas.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6719252574677567989.post-46280538495330752212008-08-30T15:19:00.000-04:002008-08-30T15:19:00.000-04:00Scott, I would love to see an easier solution, BUT...Scott, <BR/><BR/>I would love to see an easier solution, BUT<BR/><BR/>1) how can we ensure Internet voting won't be rife with fraud and hacking?<BR/><BR/>2) won't Internet voting disenfranchise a large part of the population?Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03379192575044761972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6719252574677567989.post-79198916630932905842008-08-30T15:13:00.000-04:002008-08-30T15:13:00.000-04:00Rob, I can't speak for Allen, but I took exception...Rob, <BR/>I can't speak for Allen, but I took exception to the use of the word cave, but I think what we are all talking about is basically the same. But you're right on the perception. It was perceived as a flip-flop and that in turn is perceived as a cave to some degree.<BR/><BR/>On pessimism vs. realism: I'd suspect a fair number of people would ask what the difference was between the two.<BR/><BR/>A national primary is inevitable unless Congress steps in in some way. I'm not too optimistic that that will happen though. Ha!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6719252574677567989.post-19142569489865802352008-08-30T15:06:00.000-04:002008-08-30T15:06:00.000-04:00Do y'all think that new voting systems will soon m...Do y'all think that new voting systems will soon modify this equation?<BR/><BR/>What I'm thinking is that if we get to the point where internet voting is feasible, then how much does it cost to administer an election? And if it doesn't cost much, then some of the problems were discussing go away. The national party is no longer dependent on the states to run the elections. (Yes, the states still register voters and stuff like that, but at least in some states, once they're registered, that information becomes public.) So the national party can just run its own primary process how and when it wants.<BR/><BR/>The state parties would still decide some elements of the process if the national party allows it (e.g. delegate distribution rules), and the state government would still have control over registration.<BR/><BR/>I'm thinking something like that could be the solution by, say 2020.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14690577323454357276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6719252574677567989.post-88737672866933073672008-08-30T14:46:00.000-04:002008-08-30T14:46:00.000-04:00Looks like I got slammed twice last go around, onc...Looks like I got slammed twice last go around, once for saying that Obama caved and then for calling Josh a pessimist when he is really a realist.<BR/><BR/>On the caving first, there are at least two sides of the delegate situation. First is the impact on the nomination. Obviously, the early states become the eliminators and choose the few candidates who will be survivors. MI and FL learned the lesson the hard way. In an attempt to be the deciders, they lost any input on deciding the Democratic nomination. Despite all of the hoopla that with their votes Hillary would have won the nomination, five-thirty eight did an excellent analysis earlier suggesting that Barack would have done quite well in those primaries if they had been contested. On the Republican side I would argue that MI narrowed the field down to Romney and McCain and that FL was the key state in nominating McCain. For the GOP, FL and MI were rewarded for going early and Republicans in those states will be reluctant to give up the influence that frontloading bought them in the process.<BR/><BR/>The other part of the delegate situation is actual participation at the national convention. Having a say in the platform, party rules or even attending the important speeches and other events is all involved here. Allen is right that Obama did not cave on what is important to political junkies like us, but he did cave on what could be a lifetime experience for those lucky enough to be elected and seated. That is where he caved. Not caving here would provide a strong punishment to regular delegates and superdelegates and could influence Democrats in the state legislature to try to reverse frontloading. Not caving, however could affect Obama's ability to carry MI and FL and could conceivably cost him the election, particularly if the party prevents him from carrying MI.<BR/><BR/>Allen said earlier that<BR/><BR/>"I think taking away the delegate would work, but the discretion needs to be taking out of the picture. Early voting = 0 delegates, no exceptions, no appeals, no discretion."<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that Allen's point applies to both aspects of the delegate situation. I don't see how you could make a rule like this that could not be overturned by the convention unless it became a law.<BR/><BR/>I have been optimistic that a primary system that will allow for several primaries across the country, like the Ohio plan or other regional systems, would be developed. The realist Josh Putnam has ground me down to become pessimistic that nothing short of a national primary will emerge to replace frontloading -- a disaster that I hope does not happen until after I am gone!Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03379192575044761972noreply@blogger.com